HELP! dinoflagellates??

SPR

Well-Known Member
Hi Guys

Over the last month or so i have has some brown algae patches appear as per photo below

Originally i thought this was hair algae but i am now thinking its dinoflagellates

View attachment 4628IMG_2660.JPGIMG_2661.JPG

PICTURES UPDATED 19/09/16
 

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DaveK

Well-Known Member
This looks more like cyano to me. It's hard to be 100% sure due to the lighting. Dinoflagellates don't usually form those threads with bubbles in them.

Usually this is caused by an excess of nutrients. It's also common in new tanks. The methods used to deal with it are similar to other algae control methods.

Lastly, what ever you do, do not use one of those chemical red slime remove products. You may kill this algae, but unless you correct the source of your problems, you will regrow an algae that is much more difficult to control.
 

SPR

Well-Known Member
This looks more like cyano to me. It's hard to be 100% sure due to the lighting. Dinoflagellates don't usually form those threads with bubbles in them.

Usually this is caused by an excess of nutrients. It's also common in new tanks. The methods used to deal with it are similar to other algae control methods.

Lastly, what ever you do, do not use one of those chemical red slime remove products. You may kill this algae, but unless you correct the source of your problems, you will regrow an algae that is much more difficult to control.

I have taken a few better photos if any helps. I didn't think cyno as i had hat before and looks hairy/bubbles on it but obviously open to adviceIMG_2661.JPGIMG_2660.JPGIMG_2659.JPG?if it is cyno what are the target water parameter etc?

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SPR

Well-Known Member
I have been looking around for a solution and have found the following which is sold from a reputable seller in London amongst others:

FAUNA MARIN DINO X (250ML)

Fauna Marin DINO X is a very strong and effective solution to remove any hairy or plague type algae growth in Reef Tanks, it also removes dinoflagellates. It treats algae plauges in reef aquariums without harming any corals. DINO X does not destabilise the aquarium system. DINOX is not a treatment for Cyano bacteria. 5 ml AlgaeX of 100L / 26 gal. water every 2 days.
DO NOT OVERDOSE AND CALCULATE THE LITRES OR GALLONS EXACTLY


Anyone got any experience with this - the reviews are all positive??
 

SPR

Well-Known Member
Anyone got any thoughts on above or ID confirmation from the latest pictures that these are indeed dinoflagellates ?

If they are what water parameters are ideal to get rid - Alk Ca etc if relevant ??
 

DaveK

Well-Known Member
I have been looking around for a solution and have found the following which is sold from a reputable seller in London amongst others:

FAUNA MARIN DINO X (250ML)

Fauna Marin DINO X is a very strong and effective solution to remove any hairy or plague type algae growth in Reef Tanks, it also removes dinoflagellates. It treats algae plauges in reef aquariums without harming any corals. DINO X does not destabilise the aquarium system. DINOX is not a treatment for Cyano bacteria. 5 ml AlgaeX of 100L / 26 gal. water every 2 days.
DO NOT OVERDOSE AND CALCULATE THE LITRES OR GALLONS EXACTLY

Anyone got any experience with this - the reviews are all positive??

In my opinion these type of products should never ever be used. Period.

Unless you actually fix the root cause of your problem at best all you'll do is replace one problem algae with another one. At worst, it will affect other livestock. Just because the manufacturer say it's "reef safe" doesn't mean that it will not cause other problems.

Now I know the temptation is great to use a product like this, hoping for that "miracle cure", but don't. If you don't believe me, check out the product reviews on a "famous seller" web site - http://www.bulkreefsupply.com/fauna-marin-ultra-algea-x.html#tab-reviews Note that there are a lot of poor reviews.
 

SPR

Well-Known Member
In my opinion these type of products should never ever be used. Period.

Unless you actually fix the root cause of your problem at best all you'll do is replace one problem algae with another one. At worst, it will affect other livestock. Just because the manufacturer say it's "reef safe" doesn't mean that it will not cause other problems.

Now I know the temptation is great to use a product like this, hoping for that "miracle cure", but don't. If you don't believe me, check out the product reviews on a "famous seller" web site - http://www.bulkreefsupply.com/fauna-marin-ultra-algea-x.html#tab-reviews Note that there are a lot of poor reviews.
Thanks Dave - not going to use yet - will be last resort

Thoughts on ID and what parimeters to maintain ??
 

SPR

Well-Known Member
Well so far the blackout has worked a treat and the tanks looks immaculate! In fact I may do it every few months it looks that good

I will have to wait and see if they come back over the next weeks but if they do I won't hesitate to use the Dino X I have purchased. I have researched it with various LFS's and some of them even use it for monthly maintenance on their own personal tanks. You just have to read the instructions on dosing correctly

Hopefully I won't need to.....
 

mtamorrow

Member
I have been battling Dino's as well. I am 10 days past my second, 3 day blackout and I am seeing some return again. I have a 30 gallon long, innovative marine. Salinity 1.025. Ammonia, nitrite, nitrate, phosphates all 0. Alk, ca, and mg all in range. I have no idea what to do next


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SPR

Well-Known Member
I have been battling Dino's as well. I am 10 days past my second, 3 day blackout and I am seeing some return again. I have a 30 gallon long, innovative marine. Salinity 1.025. Ammonia, nitrite, nitrate, phosphates all 0. Alk, ca, and mg all in range. I have no idea what to do next


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The problem I found after reading loads of forums and articles is that their seems to be no specific answer to what causes them or a definit way to get rid of them.

On this thread so far no one has come up with a reason what causes them just 'you need to sort out the root cause'. Which is what exactly? My nitrates etc are low and ok?

I make my own RODI water as well

I believe my readings when they started were roughly Ok although the reef foundation elements such as Ca were a bit low as done before I added buffers etc:

Reading- tested with Red Sea and Red Sea Pro test kits;
Salinity 35
Ammonia 0
Nitrite not tested
Nitrate 1.5
Phosphate 0.04
PH 8.2
Ca. 420
Alk 8.1dkh
Mg 1340

My LED's are in in accordance the the Red Sea Reef settings and are on for around 8 hours per day

The only thing I have thought of is that when I set up the tank in June 2016 I was using the Red Sea activated carbon for the first 4-6 weeks. I then changed to some from Hydor which was from my LFS as they didn't have the Red Sea. That's around the time that the problem started with the Dinos so I'm am wondering if the carbon wasn't up to scratch and wasn't clearing enough of the micro bio load out. I have the Max S 650 2016 so good skimmer etc etc.

Following my recent blackout I have re added the Red Sea carbon and that's all I will use from now on and will see how I get on. So far it's clear

In the last few days I have also added a new UV-C 36W steriliser to kill of any nasties and algae floating in the water column.

At the end of the day as I said above, if they come back I'm gonna use a chemical treatment Dino X. Yes its not a natural ingredient, but much of the stuff used in modern tanks isn't natural so... It's 2016 not 1960 and things have moved on. Fingers crossed I won't need to but it's early days
 
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mtsully71

Well-Known Member
I'll throw some stuff for you to absorb Shaun......

While I agree you have an underlying issue to find a root cause, A lot of problems start with RODI, I would double check that as well as your dosing regimen. As you posted, your numbers look good, but I think I read where your following the red sea system? While your numbers appear good, you could be running a nutrient rich system, which your tank algae/dinos etc are thriving on. Maybe try some GFO to help strip the phosphates out and increase WC's to 15% weekly. Im not saying you should run a 0.0 system but it should help.

Couple other things, If your are feeding corals/inverts frequently ya might cut back a little as this adds excess nutrients, even the fishies can go on a diet. I would increase my skimming to more wet also. I can't tell from photos, but maybe adding a nice powerhead for increasing the flow along the affected areas will help. If they can grow like that, I also see a flow issue.

In my tank, I noticed a few spots of some cyno and dino like algae beginning to take hold. I added another powerhead, increased skimming, stirred the top 1/2 inch of sandbed in the affected spots and kept up with GFO and carbon changes. This was over the span of maybe 4 months. My sand is now and has been nice and white and I have had no other re-occurences.

Here is a very good article for you to read that may be of help.

http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2006-11/rhf/index.php

As I am sure your aware activated carbon removes organic compounds and basically the processes involve the transfer of the pollutants from the water to the solid phase, which in turn the bacteria readily colonize the outer surfaces of the activated carbon and consume some of the sorbed organics. IMO any high quality carbon product would suffice and in a tank your size you could do about 2 cups changing out every 4-6 weeks.

Lights out I am all for it, I do it every 3-4 months regardless, for 3-4 days and it's like a free cleaning :thumber2: and has no ill effects on the coral as you know.

good luck and stay warm, winter is coming!

just trying to give ya some ideas to think about and happy reefing

Sully
 

Annette Garcia

New Member
Dinoflagellates are microscopic single celled organisms that are photosynthetic. They are very widespread in nature. There are over 2,000 different types of Dinoflagellates that can be found in different marine and fresh water environments. This is the basis of why Dinoflagellates can be such a problem to get rid of in a marine aquarium. To make matters much more challenging, Dinoflagellates can look a lot like cyanobacteria as well as other types of algaes if you do not have firsthand experience with them.



Appearance:

One of the descriptions that I have read and remembered the best is that Dinoflagellates looks like runny brown boogers with air bubbles. While funny, that is somewhat accurate. The most common color for dinoflagellates is a shade of brown, but they are also common found in a pale brown to off white / yellow color as well as a few different shades of green. The will start to coat object inside your aquariums as well as / or coating the aquarium glass. This coating will look like slime and be one of the above mention colors. It is also common to see gas bubble trapped by it and even a stingy appearance as the gas bubbles try to escape.

Dinoflagellates are a problem to have in your aquarium for two main reasons:

A) The vast majority of commonly found Dinoflagellates in marine aquariums are toxic to most forums organisms that you will keep in a marine aquarium

B) The can cover/coat corals to the point of stress them and even killing them



Actions to take to deal with Dinoflagellates

Dealing with Dinoflagellates has driven hobbyist to break-down their aquarium and start from scratch again or even leave the hobby. In the vast majority of these situations, not quickly reacting to the problem or using a incorrect method to deal with the situation resulted in either no changes or very limited success. Quick recognition and actions taken to get rid of them are critical.

As there are over 2,000 different types of Dinoflagellates, knowing which course of action to take can be a little difficult as one method that would quickly kill-off one species of Dinoflagellates will not slightly affect another. This is also why the internet has many stories of one approach working perfectly in one person’s aquarium while not in another aquarium which results in many people arguing for or against certain approaches. It is always best to take a combination of methods at once to help ensure success in a shorter period of time. Based on my experience getting rid of this stuff, I would suggest taking a the below describe approaches:

1) Reduce available nutrients in the water

2) Add additional granular activated carbon to your set-up (catalytic activated carbon is the best)

3) Black-out all lighting for a period of 24 to 72 hours followed by a reduction in the photo period

4) Reduce feedings to every second day

5) Manually remove as much of the Dinoflagellates as possible every day

6) Set you skimmer to over skim requiring the cup to be emptied at least twice daily

7) Use a 200 micron filter sock.



The above actions have worked for me on two different occasions in two different. If you do see progress after 4 to 5 weeks with the above steps, there are a few other things you can try.

1) While maintaining the above sets, stop completing water changes

2) Increase your magnesium levels to 1400 ppm to 1600ppm

3) Increase and maintain the pH to 8.3 to 8.5

4) Add a refugium or algae scrubber

5) Start bacteria dosing

6) Change brands of salt and start using RO/DI water if you are not already



1) Reduce available nutrients in the water

Reducing the nitrates to 2ppm or less and keeping the phosphate levels to undetectable levels will help kill off the Dinoflagellates. Using a good phosphate remover and carbon dosing are the two of the most common approaches to achieve this. The theory behind the nutrient reduction is that when dinoflagellates are in a very low nutrient environment, the bacteria inside their bodies will reproduce to the point where they will die off. This is one time that you cannot trust your test kits while you have a lot of dinoflagellates in your aquarium as they will consume nitrates and phosphates almost instantly. You have get assume the levels are high, take steps to reduce them, and start testing once they are on their way out. The following thread explains carbon dosing: http://www.reefaquarium.com/2012/carbon-dosing-in-laymans-terms/

2) Add additional granular activated carbon to your set-up (catalytic activated carbon is the best)

The reason for this is that most of the dinoflagellates found in aquariums is also toxic to fish and inverts. This is why you can commonly find dead snails in a aquarium with dinoflagellates, they try to eat it and end up ingesting the toxins which kills them.

3) Black-out all lighting for a period of 24 to 72 hours followed by a reduction in the photo period. As Dinoflagellates are photosynthetic, this will cause a large scale die-off, and when followed by a reduced lighting period, it will go a very long way to help prevent thier return.

4) Reduce feedings to every second day

This will allow you to remove nutrients from the water even before they are added. Feeding every second day for extended periods of time will not harm or effect the health of your fish

5) Manually remove as much of the Dinoflagellates as possible every day. Siphon these little devils out of your tank each day. Clean up everything you can so you will not allowing them to reproduce and spread even further in your aquarium

6) Set you skimmer to over skim requiring the cup to be emptied at least twice daily the dinoflagellates for nutrients. In addition, it will help to keep your carbon dioxide levels low. Just remember with each skimmer cup you empty, replace the same water volume in the aquarium with freshly made salt water.

7) Use a 200 micron filter sock in your set-up.

This can help filter out any free floating dinoflagellates from the water that your skimmer may not remove



Other options to try when the above actions do not help after about 4 to 5 weeks of trying.

1) While maintaining the above mentions steps, stop completing water changes.

As dinoflagellates will use trace elements from the water, the theory is that stopping water changes, you can eventually starve them out. Through the replacement water from the manually cleaning and empting the skimmer cup, you will be replacing some of the water though. This would be one of the last things that I would recommend trying

2) Increase your Magnesium level to 1400ppm to 1600ppm.

This has shown to be effective in a few different types of dinoflagellates.

3) Increase and maintain the pH to 8.3 to 8.5. Maintaining a higher pH can cause some types of dinoflagellates to die off. The following link explains it a lot better that I can. This would be one of the last things that I would recommend trying as well. If not done correctly, you can cause damage/stress to corals and fish. The following thread will explain this a lot better than I can: http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2006-11/rhf/

4) Add a refugium or algae scrubber

These both will help to remove nitrates, phosphates and a few other certain trace elements that some dinoflagellates will need to survive. Please note, you cannot alter your pH or Mag levels if you are trying to use a algae scrubber or refugium

5) Start bacteria dosing

Sometimes the common sold bacteria can out compete dinoflagellates for certain resources in the water.

6) Change brands of salt

Dinoflagellates do need certain trace elements from the water. If you were to change your bands of salt, you could be removing these trace elements causing the dinoflagellates to die off. Starting to use RO/DI water with 0 TDS (Total Dissolved Solids) will also help if you are currently using tape water.



Preventing Dinoflagellates

The best advice that I can give you is to have a properly planned tank and to have your water parameters in line at all times.


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SPR

Well-Known Member
Thanks guys. The articles quoted are amongst the many I read but very helpful.

Sully. I might try altering the directions on the 4 power heads as I haven't changed them for a while and that may be affecting the flow in the areas affected - hadn't thought of that one... The main areas were around the sides so I'll increase the flow

The dinos were never out of control as I caught them before they took hold and so far they haven't come back although we will have to see.

I am going to run the skimmer wet for a while and also maybe try reducing feeding a bit

The RODI has been between 0 - 6 before I change the filters and my LFS use at 6 in their tanks so I assume that was acceptable but maybe I'll change the DI resin a bit more as well. As quoted in many articles this slight lapse could be the route cause with anything over 0.

The Red Sea accelerated growth program calls for nitrates 1-2ppm and phosphate 0.1 so that's what I am trying to aim for and to be fair am there most of the time. I went away for a week and nitrate increased to 3ppm and I think this may have been what caused the dinos to start 'bubbling' in the photos as the skimmer had been turned virtually off by my helper.

Prior to that nitrates were <1.5 and phosphate 0.45 and the dinos were just brown patches in certain parts of the sand
 
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SPR

Well-Known Member
Just to keep you updated on my progress on this and to maybe help others, it's been around 10 days ish maybe a bit more and so far no signs of the dinos.

After I turned the lights back on I had a few very minor brown patches appear but then what I did was dramatically increase the flow of water to the areas affected by adjusting the 5 water jets in the tank. I think this may have been what finally helped although I also purchased a UVC steriliser to kill anything in the water column. Nitrates currently 1.5 and phosphate 0.06.

So in summary catch them early, black out and then increase water flow - oh whilst keeping water parameters in check!

So far so good so fingers crossed all sorted.
 

StevesLEDs

RS Sponsor
Bubbles = photosynthesis = algae, as those are pure oxygen bubbles. If you look closer, you'd probably see a steady stream of microbubbles as well, as those big bubbles are just a collection of the smaller bubbles.

Jeff
 
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