Red Sea Reef Foundation A, B ?

OneFishTwoFish

Active Member
PREMIUM
So after 19 months, I'm just getting into a little bit of dosing. I'm trying to keep Alk stable. I've been testing, and manually adding a little Red Sea Reef Foundation B to my sump. Started with Alk at 2.0 meq/l (5.6 dKH). Used a daily dose of 35ml for 6 days, and got up to 3.12 meq/l (8.7 dKH). I'm thinking that's a reasonable level. Other parameters are:
SG = 1.026
pH = 8.21
Ca = 430
Mg = 1400
NO3 = 8
PO4 = .04
Temp = 78F
ORP = 329

I test Alk with a Hanna Checker and have confirmed those results with the Red Sea Pro Alk Test Kit.

I've arrived at a daily 10ml dose of Red Sea Reef Foundation B to maintain the Alk level. I'm adding this dose manually at 9:00pm. I test every morning at 9:00am, Over the past 5 days, I've observed 3.12, 3.08, 3.08, 3.02, 3.12 Not perfect, but pretty close.

I'm collecting info as I consider automated dosing. Certainly, there will come a point where I'll need to dose other supplements. This leads me to two questions:

(a) Do my daily Alk tests (3.12, 3.08, 3.08, 3.02, 3.12) appear to be close enough or do I have too much variation ?

(b) Concerning Red Sea Reef Foundation supplements, do they need to be shaken or stirred on a regular basis ? Can they sit in an automated dosing setup for a week without shaking / stirring ? @RedSeaKev

Thanks !
---Frank
 

OneFishTwoFish

Active Member
PREMIUM
Out of curiosity, what does the alkalinity read on the water you mix up for water changes? And what salt mix do you use?

Just re-tested this on Saturday January 30th:
Tropic Marin Bio Actif
Made 19 Gallons, using RO/DI water, mixed at 77 degrees
SG = 1.026 / 35
Ca = 450
Alk = 3.02
Mg = 1400
 

chipmunkofdoom2

Well-Known Member
Great advice Pat. The 2.0 you started out with was too low, for sure, but stability is more important than chasing a number that fits neatly at the center of what we generally call "acceptable." The 3.0 meq/L you're shooting to maintain is just fine.

OneFish, from the sound of it, you're just now starting to dose alkalinity and still on your way out of correcting a problem (your alk being 2.0 meq/L). Things may be a bit unstable at the moment, but as your parameters stabilize I think what you'll find is it will be much easier to dial in the exact dosage you need and what results it will give you. The depletion of alk and CA should remain fairly constant if you're not introducing more hard corals. If the demand is the same and you're not doing unusually large or frequent water changes, you should eventually get to the point where the same amount dosed daily will give you very stable alkalinity levels.
 

OneFishTwoFish

Active Member
PREMIUM
Great advice Pat. The 2.0 you started out with was too low, for sure, but stability is more important than chasing a number that fits neatly at the center of what we generally call "acceptable." The 3.0 meq/L you're shooting to maintain is just fine.

OneFish, from the sound of it, you're just now starting to dose alkalinity and still on your way out of correcting a problem (your alk being 2.0 meq/L). Things may be a bit unstable at the moment, but as your parameters stabilize I think what you'll find is it will be much easier to dial in the exact dosage you need and what results it will give you. The depletion of alk and CA should remain fairly constant if you're not introducing more hard corals. If the demand is the same and you're not doing unusually large or frequent water changes, you should eventually get to the point where the same amount dosed daily will give you very stable alkalinity levels.

Thanks Patrick ! I'll continue along the path I've described above. Any thoughts on the need to shake / stir additives fairly regularly ? I'm concerned that as the bottle sits, the 'good stuff' settles to the bottom and would cause unexpected issues (spikes or drops in levels) with an automated dosing system.
 

Pat24601

Well-Known Member
Great advice Pat. The 2.0 you started out with was too low, for sure, but stability is more important than chasing a number that fits neatly at the center of what we generally call "acceptable." The 3.0 meq/L you're shooting to maintain is just fine.

OneFish, from the sound of it, you're just now starting to dose alkalinity and still on your way out of correcting a problem (your alk being 2.0 meq/L). Things may be a bit unstable at the moment, but as your parameters stabilize I think what you'll find is it will be much easier to dial in the exact dosage you need and what results it will give you. The depletion of alk and CA should remain fairly constant if you're not introducing more hard corals. If the demand is the same and you're not doing unusually large or frequent water changes, you should eventually get to the point where the same amount dosed daily will give you very stable alkalinity levels.

Well said.
 

chipmunkofdoom2

Well-Known Member
Hey Glen, thanks! Glad to be back :) I've been tankless for long enough and just set one up a week or so ago.. I'm getting a build thread together shortly!

Sorry to threadjack OneFish. I'm not sure how well the two part additives will behave in a doser (more on this below). The only thing I've ever dosed with any regularity was kalk and that's pretty straightforward (it does settle, but the precipitate is not an issue). I tend to agree with you though, I always agitate chemicals before dosing, unless the directions explicitly recommends against doing so.

In terms of long term alkalinity dosing strategies, it might be worthwhile looking into dosing a dedicated alkalinity supplement instead of using your two part's alk component in a doser. Baking soda is a decent cheap option for raising alkalinity. 100% pure baking soda is simply sodium bicarbnonate and can be mixed into your topoff water, and dosed as your tank's water evaporates.

It might also be worth looking into dripping/dosing kalkwasser. If you're not familiar, kalk essentially contains both parts of the two-part system you dose. Kalk is typically mixed with the topoff water and dosed as the tank water evaporates. Typically CA and alkalinity are used in similar proportions. If your long term dosing regimen involves only dosing for alkalinity, your calcium levels will likely decrease over time because you aren't replacing it as it gets used. It's possible they won't, but they likely will. Kalk contains both the alkalinity component and the calcium component, so both levels should stay consistent over time. Kalk is not without its own headaches, so I'm not suggesting you go out and buy a huge tub and start dosing away. Just keep in mind that if you're only dosing for alkalinity, your calcium will drop over time unless you dose for that as well (sorry if you know all this, not sure what kind of experience you have with the hobby!).

So long story short, I'm not sure how two-part additives behave in dosing systems. I think that two-parts are mostly for those who need casual supplementation. If you're to the point where you're looking to set up a doser, it may be worth looking at kalk.

That's just my $0.02 though. Like I said I don't have much experience with dosers. Take it for what it's worth! :)
 

nanoreefing4fun

Well-Known Member
RS STAFF
COD (chipmonkofdoom) great to hear you are getting back in the game - look forward to your new tank build thread !

Sorry Frank - just excited to see cod back on RS - if you have never read his sticky on leds, it's one of the best, was a real education for me - played a big part in me getting leds
So What's The Deal With These LEDs?

Frank a 2 part solution is a great way to go imo, and from all the Randy Holmes Farley articles I have read - I think your on the right track - stability is the key - your testing & going slow... that is very good !
 

OneFishTwoFish

Active Member
PREMIUM
Hey Glen, thanks! Glad to be back :) I've been tankless for long enough and just set one up a week or so ago.. I'm getting a build thread together shortly!

Sorry to threadjack OneFish. I'm not sure how well the two part additives will behave in a doser (more on this below). The only thing I've ever dosed with any regularity was kalk and that's pretty straightforward (it does settle, but the precipitate is not an issue). I tend to agree with you though, I always agitate chemicals before dosing, unless the directions explicitly recommends against doing so.

In terms of long term alkalinity dosing strategies, it might be worthwhile looking into dosing a dedicated alkalinity supplement instead of using your two part's alk component in a doser. Baking soda is a decent cheap option for raising alkalinity. 100% pure baking soda is simply sodium bicarbnonate and can be mixed into your topoff water, and dosed as your tank's water evaporates.

It might also be worth looking into dripping/dosing kalkwasser. If you're not familiar, kalk essentially contains both parts of the two-part system you dose. Kalk is typically mixed with the topoff water and dosed as the tank water evaporates. Typically CA and alkalinity are used in similar proportions. If your long term dosing regimen involves only dosing for alkalinity, your calcium levels will likely decrease over time because you aren't replacing it as it gets used. It's possible they won't, but they likely will. Kalk contains both the alkalinity component and the calcium component, so both levels should stay consistent over time. Kalk is not without its own headaches, so I'm not suggesting you go out and buy a huge tub and start dosing away. Just keep in mind that if you're only dosing for alkalinity, your calcium will drop over time unless you dose for that as well (sorry if you know all this, not sure what kind of experience you have with the hobby!).

So long story short, I'm not sure how two-part additives behave in dosing systems. I think that two-parts are mostly for those who need casual supplementation. If you're to the point where you're looking to set up a doser, it may be worth looking at kalk.

That's just my $0.02 though. Like I said I don't have much experience with dosers. Take it for what it's worth! :)


Patrick, thank you Very Much for the detailed reply. I'll be considering my options carefully as I head down the 'dosing path'.
---Frank
 

chipmunkofdoom2

Well-Known Member
You're welcome, glad I can add food for thought (not sure I helped much hehe).

I found this video today when watching another video on BRS's Youtube channel, thought you might find it useful. Apparently with their mix-it-yourself two part dosing system, they say there are no issues with using it in an automated fashion:

 

OneFishTwoFish

Active Member
PREMIUM
I'm back with another observation . . .

Alk is holding fairly steady for 10 days within a range of 2.94 meq/l (8.2 dKH) to 3.12 meq/l (8.7 dKH).
I'm dosing Red Sea Reef Foundation B (Alk) at 10ml, once per day.

I'm noticing that Calc is declining (440 to 380 in a week). Mag has also declined from 1400 to 1300 in the same timeframe.

Is it wise to slowly adjust Calc back into the mid 400's ? ("Slowly" meaning approx +20 per day.)
Have I hit a point where I'll be dosing Alk & Calc daily, in some defined ratio ?

Thanks !
---Frank
 

chipmunkofdoom2

Well-Known Member
I'm noticing that Calc is declining (440 to 380 in a week). Mag has also declined from 1400 to 1300 in the same timeframe.

Is it wise to slowly adjust Calc back into the mid 400's ? ("Slowly" meaning approx +20 per day.)
Have I hit a point where I'll be dosing Alk & Calc daily, in some defined ratio ?

Thanks !
---Frank

Hey Frank, the CA decrease is expected. Alkalinity and calcium are used in roughly the same quantities in reef aquariums by animals that build calcifying corals and coralline algae. When you dose alkalinity only, you're replacing the alkalinity (or, more accurately, carbonate/bicarbonate) that is used in the calcification process. As a result the alk stays steady. Since you're not replacing CA, though, the CA drops. Very generally speaking, when you're dosing two-part additives for regular maintenance, you want to dose both in similar quantities. When there's a problem, like the one you had with low alk, then dosing more of one part than the other is the way to fix it. However, dosing both in equal (or roughly equal) quantities will be required in the long haul, since both are used in about the same quantity.

On to the Mg.. what is your bio-load like? Almost all corals use some Mg to build their skeletons, but some use more than others. Coralline algae in particular is very Mg-hungry. This article has some useful info about Mg. If you get to the point where you have a lot of hard corals and you're dosing a lot of CA/alk, you will probably get to the point that you'll need to dose Mg as well. Although some people like to keep their Mg high, 1,400ppm or more, there's nothing wrong with Mg around 1,300 - 1,350 ppm. If you wanted to get some Mg to dose, you certainly could. I'd probably just perform a water change and see where that gets you.

So in short, I would begin dosing CA in about the same quantity as you are alkalinity. This should over time bring your CA levels back up. If you want to help speed up the process, you could dose a bit more CA than alk, but I wouldn't go too much higher. I'd probably start low and work my way up.
 

OneFishTwoFish

Active Member
PREMIUM
Hey Frank, the CA decrease is expected. Alkalinity and calcium are used in roughly the same quantities in reef aquariums by animals that build calcifying corals and coralline algae. When you dose alkalinity only, you're replacing the alkalinity (or, more accurately, carbonate/bicarbonate) that is used in the calcification process. As a result the alk stays steady. Since you're not replacing CA, though, the CA drops. Very generally speaking, when you're dosing two-part additives for regular maintenance, you want to dose both in similar quantities. When there's a problem, like the one you had with low alk, then dosing more of one part than the other is the way to fix it. However, dosing both in equal (or roughly equal) quantities will be required in the long haul, since both are used in about the same quantity.

On to the Mg.. what is your bio-load like? Almost all corals use some Mg to build their skeletons, but some use more than others. Coralline algae in particular is very Mg-hungry. This article has some useful info about Mg. If you get to the point where you have a lot of hard corals and you're dosing a lot of CA/alk, you will probably get to the point that you'll need to dose Mg as well. Although some people like to keep their Mg high, 1,400ppm or more, there's nothing wrong with Mg around 1,300 - 1,350 ppm. If you wanted to get some Mg to dose, you certainly could. I'd probably just perform a water change and see where that gets you.

So in short, I would begin dosing CA in about the same quantity as you are alkalinity. This should over time bring your CA levels back up. If you want to help speed up the process, you could dose a bit more CA than alk, but I wouldn't go too much higher. I'd probably start low and work my way up.

Thanks Patrick !
I'll begin dosing CA tomorrow. Thanks for the Mg article, I'll be re-reading that a few times for better understanding. I do have Coralline algae in many spots on my rocks, and about 40% of the back glass is covered in it (almost 400 square inches). I do not have any SPS. I've got some LPS though . . . Hammer #1 with a 4" skeleton, Hammer #2 with an 6" skeleton, Red Goniopora with 3" skeleton, Green Goniopora with 3" skeleton, two Torch corals with 3" skeletons.
 

chipmunkofdoom2

Well-Known Member
Glad I can help! Typically, unless you have a LOT of hard corals, Mg is something to keep an eye on, but not something you'll need to dose (there are always exceptions, but generally speaking). It sounds like you have a lot of coralline too, which could be the cause.

If it were me, I'd just keep an eye on the Mg for the next few weeks. If you're not able to keep it up with your regular water changes, it may be time to consider dosing it.
 
Top